Monday, April 14, 2008

"Makedonski"- A Loch Ness Monster Style Spotting

Nationalists from the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (F.Y.R.O.M) along with their diaspora cohorts constantly inundate internet forums and blogs with obscure references to "Macedonians" in historical texts with the implication that the authors of the texts were referring to 'ethnic Macedonians' akin to those who currently self describe as such.

Prior to the mid to late 19th century the descriptor "Macedonian" had no ethnic significance. It was a geographic descriptor used to describe inhabitants of the region regardless of their ethnicity. Unfortunately, in the minds of nationalists from F.Y.R.O.M and her diaspora, everyone from Alexander the Great to Gotse Delchev was an 'ethnic Macedonian'!

An example of a nationalist who scours historical texts for any references to "Macedonians" and then posts the reference in multiple internet forums as proof for a continuous and archaic "Macedonian" ethnos is an individual who posts under the pseudonym of "Jordan Piperkata". The following is taken from Mr. Piperkata's website where he has taken a quote by Thomas Gordon of out context in order to imply that an "ethnic Macedonian" was spotted during the early 19th century!


To begin with, is it not amusing that the same nationalists who claim that the "Macedonian" ethnicity has existed in continuity for dozen(s) of centuries while dominating the demographics of the region have to resort to posting references to footnotes found in obscure 19th century accounts to support their claim of a constant regional dominance?

A few points regarding this reference:

1. Thomas Gordon goes into great detail describing the races and population groups of European Turkey. Nowhere does he mention a "Macedonian" race or ethnicity. Why would Mr. Gordon, who documented his first hand observations of the region during the early 19th century, not describe what Mr. Piperkata and his compatriots would claim was one of the most significant ethnic groups in the region of European Turkey at the time?





2. Thomas Gordon categorized the revolutionary figures Diamantis, Gazzos and Kara Tassos as "Macedonians". These people were captains of the Armatoles that fought the Ottoman Turks and it is blatently obvious when one reads the extensive descriptions of the various conflicts they were involved in that these people were not "ethnic Macedonians". After all, would Mr. Piperkata et al. be so bold as to claim that individuals with names such as Diamantis, Gazzos and Tassos were 'ethnic Macedonians'?

3. Makedonski, the figure who Mr. Piperkata claims that Thomas Gordon presented as an "ethnic Macedonian", is referred to in other contemporary texts. Since Thomas Gordon does not elaborate on Makedonski's background I will now present an excerpt from a 19th century book called the "The Secret Societies of the European Revolution 1776-1876" by Thomas Frost written in 1876. On page 67 Frost makes Makedonski's background very clear:



From the available evidence taken from the Frost and Gordon books we can safely conclude:

1. Gordon used the term "Macedonian" as a Geographic descriptor. He used it to describe Greek revolutionary leaders such as Diamantis.

2. Makedonski was a Russian of Greek background from Macedonia as Frost tells us.

This is yet another example of a "Loch Ness monster style sighting" of a "Macedonian" in the historical literature that turns out NOT to be an 'ethnic Macedonian' once the subject is put into context and the relevant contemporary literature is examined. The likes of Mr. Piperkata will continue to post references to the most obscure passages in order to lend credence to their far fetched mythical historiography which claims that the "Macedonian" ethnos is centuries old and rooted in ancient Macedon of Alexander's era. If that was the case Mr. Piperkata would certainly not have to resort to posting obscure references to 19th century books' footnotes in order to substantiate his far fetched claims!


jondow said...

Nice post you dork however Frost was not even present during the war for independence. So what is his source that Makedonski was a "greek" huh? I cannot wait to see your answer for this one.

Chris Philipou said...

Ivan, aka True Bulgarian from New York. Your uneducated propaganda will not work here like it does at where you delete posts which you cannot answer.

Since you do place such a heavy importance on authors that were present during the Greek war of Independence perhaps you should be reminded that Thomas Gordon was there at the time and he made absolutely no mention of any "ethnic Macedonians" when he described the populations that composed the Sultan's European dominions. Why would he, like seemingly countless other contemporary writers who where there (see Finlay), not record what you propagandists would claim was one of the largest and oldest ethnic groups in the region? Any objective and educated person knows the answer to this question: "ethnic Macedonians" did not exist at the time. Why would Gordon think that "Makedonski" was an "ethnic Macedonian" if he did not list "ethnic Macedonians" as any part of the population component in the region? Furthermore, if Greeks did not exist at the time and were manufactured out of Vlachs and Arvanites by outsiders, like you uneducated propagandists claim, why would Gordon, who was PRESENT, not only describe vast Greek populations but also distinguish them from Vlachs, varous Arvanite groups, Bulgarians and Serbs?

As for Frost, I do not know who his source was and frankly I do not care. His view does not contradict Gordon's view and most importantly he did not describe "Makedonski" as an "ethnic Macedonian" from Russia. Just because he doesnt write what his exact source was doesnt make his statement false. Ill let the objective reader decide who is more reliable, you and your racist maknews cohorts, or the likes of Gordon (who was PRESENT), and Frost who wrote during the 19th century.

The hard cold truth, Ivan the True Bulgar: if your people formed the vast majority in the region for centuries, as you and your uneducated propagandist friends at maknews claim, you would not have to resort to scouring the footnotes of 19th century texts for obscure references to "Macedonians". LOL!

Gus said...

I would like to add the following to Chris' response. If your people actually formed the majority for centuries (or even existed as an ethnic group), dear True Bulgar, guys like Gordon and Finlay would have included them in their texts when they described all of the different peoples in European Turkey. Oh, let me guess this was another conspiracy motivated by the Germans and the British to hide the descendants of Alexander the Great! :-)